Curse

Kali Ma · Jul 02, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

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If I know that my opponent is going to come with an all Air Ele/Monk team, I should be at fault for not stocking up on anti-elemental armor or the Mantra of Lightning stance for my Mesmer (or any other gear for a strat that I decide will work). It should not be determined by the rules of the system that we all participate in, which keeps me from accessing this gear because I haven't jumped through enough hoops for the "league". Everyone should start with all options, and may the best team win from there. That's the only time that 100% pure skill takes over, when the "league" doesn't influence the match before it starts.

Why doesn't anybody understand this example? So many intelligent people participating in this thread, why are so many resistant to acknowledging this simple truth? Bashing on Arredondo and picking apart his analogies doesn't change the truth of what he's saying.

I like both PvE and PvP. However, I've never been able to get into PvP really seriously, and just jump in casually because right now I'd guess that around 60% (probably more) of the available skills, runes and upgrades are locked to my characters, even with having played PvE regularly since release date.

It would be so much more fun if I could spend my time designing builds and strategies with my teammates to counter other builds and strategies. Yet I try to do what I can with the predesigned templates and what my characters have unlocked, and have had some enjoyable experiences doing so.

Some would likely ask, "well what's the problem then?" Well, consider the following example, which is akin to one I've experienced...

A guild does some research and recognizes that carrying a Protection Monk and a Domination Mesmer built around a specific skill set for each would be a potentially good strategy to combat the guild they're going up against in GvG, or that it's at least worth trying and practicing for awhile. But wait... none of the guild members have focused on those attributes with their PvE characters, and the skills they want to use are locked. On top of that, the runes and upgrades designed for those characters are locked too.

Ok, so what are their options?

1) Don't play those characters or try that strategy.

2) Go into PvE and either create new characters or change one of their high level character's secondary and go searching for the skills, runes, and upgrades to unlock.

3) Unlock and purchase all the stuff needed through PvP play over the next several days, weeks, months or however long it takes.

Wow, that's a lot of work to get to a point of being able to just try out a strategy that they're not even sure is going to work.

And that's where all of the sports analogies come into play, which are getting lost in semantic deconstruction and falling upon deaf ears. In any sport, if a team or player comes up with a strategy they would like to try, as long as it falls within the rules of the game, there are no league imposed restrictions that prohibit them from trying out that strategy.

If a new NBA franchise wants to try employing a full court press, the league isn't going to come in and say, "ok, you can start to practice and apply the full court press after the team hits 1000 shots, or 1000 free throws, whichever comes first."

If a new entrant at Wimbledon decides she wants to apply a serve and volley tactic against her opponent, the WTA isn't going to tell her, "ok, you can begin practicing and using the serve and volley after having won 1000 games, or 50 matches in tournament play."

In both of these examples, it's up to the player/team and their skill and practice in applying these techniques in the game as to whether they succeed or fail, win or lose.

If I could practice an Inspiration Mesmer, I might be really good at playing that character effectively in a team. But I will probably never know to be quite honest, because the skills and upgrades are locked.

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You can't compare practicing a sport to unlocking skills. You can, however, compare practicing a sport to practicing GW PvP.

Exactly.

Red Locust · Jul 02, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

Why doesn't anybody understand this example? So many intelligent people participating in this thread, why are so many resistant to acknowledging this simple truth? Bashing on Arredondo and picking apart his analogies doesn't change the truth of what he's saying.

I like both PvE and PvP. However, I've never been able to get into PvP really seriously, and just jump in casually because right now I'd guess that around 60% (probably more) of the available skills, runes and upgrades are locked to my characters, even with having played PvE regularly since release date.

It would be so much more fun if I could spend my time designing builds and strategies with my teammates to counter other builds and strategies. Yet I try to do what I can with the predesigned templates and what my characters have unlocked, and have had some enjoyable experiences doing so.

Some would likely ask, "well what's the problem then?" Well, consider the following example, which is akin to one I've experienced...

A guild does some research and recognizes that carrying a Protection Monk and a Domination Mesmer built around a specific skill set for each would be a potentially good strategy to combat the guild they're going up against in GvG, or that it's at least worth trying and practicing for awhile. But wait... none of the guild members have focused on those attributes with their PvE characters, and the skills they want to use are locked. On top of that, the runes and upgrades designed for those characters are locked too.

Ok, so what are their options?

1) Don't play those characters or try that strategy.

2) Go into PvE and either create new characters or change one of their high level character's secondary and go searching for the skills, runes, and upgrades to unlock.

3) Unlock and purchase all the stuff needed through PvP play over the next several days, weeks, months or however long it takes.

Wow, that's a lot of work to get to a point of being able to just try out a strategy that they're not even sure is going to work.

No game is based 100% on pure skill. Everything involves equipment, be it your hardware or in-game items. Sports? The more money you put into the team, the better it is. Car racing? The better the car, the better the outcome. FPS games? The better your hardware the better your performance. RPG games? The more time you put into your character the better he is.

GW is actually quite lenient in this respect, in that you can easily unlock 2 classes and play at 100% potential. If you split up the professions among your guild, you can compensate for everyone not having unlocked all skills. Then you're at 100% competitiveness. Your guild's failure to do so is not the fault of the game as much as it is the fault of the guild for not having organized this.
RPGs tend to not rely on your hardwars, but rather your in-game items. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's gonna remain.

Kali Ma · Jul 02, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

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Your guild's failure to do so is not the fault of the game as much as it is the fault of the guild for not having organized this.

Guess I should have not edited out this part of my post...

So if someone in that guild gets a little frustrated by it and says so on the forums here or anywhere else, this is the common response they get...

'Tough luck, get used to it. If you don't like it, don't play. Stop whining. You're guild isn't serious, so who cares? You're a noob for not focusing on those skills in the first place. STFU. Noob. Whiner. Don't let the door hit you on you're way out. Your guild sucks. You're an idiot. Loser. On and on, etc..."

Um... ok then. Really helpful, thanks.

RMThompson · Jul 02, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

If a new NBA franchise wants to try employing a full court press, the league isn't going to come in and say, "ok, you can start to practice and apply the full court press after the team hits 1000 shots, or 1000 free throws, whichever comes first."

If a new entrant at Wimbledon decides she wants to apply a serve and volley tactic against her opponent, the WTA isn't going to tell her, "ok, you can begin practicing and using the serve and volley after having won 1000 games, or 50 matches in tournament play."

OMG I am so sick of you trying to use sports as an anology, it doesn't work. First of all, you can't just BE an entrant into Wimbledon or the NBA, you have to PURCHASE the required equipmant first.

You can't just BE succesful at PvP, you have PURCHASE the required equipment first.

Here, instead of money, it's now Faction, and instead of buying balls your buying skills.

Instead of money, it's GOLD, and instead of rackets your buying runes or equipment you need.

Skills in the game are NOT equivalent to SKILLS in real life. Stop trying to make them the same. Skills in the game, meaning spells and attacks, are EQUIPMENT.

The unlock is there to REWARD players for still playing the game. Anet is a business, and if they gave you want right away, youd stop playing the game sooner. This way you WANT to play longer and harder to gain the EQUIPMENT you need. NO REAL LIFE EQUIVALENT? O FRIGGIN WELL! GET OVER IT!!!!

It's really as simple as that. If you don't like it, don't play it. Guild Wars isn't the only game, nor is playing it a requirement. I don't like Worlds of Warcraft, and I don't play it.

See how easy that was?

Loviatar · Jul 02, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

a serious question for pvp people only

will a skillful person with a template 20 character have a better than 50-50 chance of beating a less skillful competitor with a template 20 who has more time on their clock so to speak.

please answer yes or no if you can under only the above conditions

thank you

Kali Ma · Jul 02, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

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Let me know if my understanding of your position is incorrect; and don't feel shy about asking for clarification on mine. If you think you have a sufficient understanding of my position, also don't feel shy about explaining why I'm wrong.

Frankly, that post is the very meaning of obfuscation. It's a simple thing here, really. Unlock everything for PvP. Make it about skill in application, not unlocking through time played.

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O FRIGGIN WELL! GET OVER IT!!!!... If you don't like it, don't play it.

/sigh... guess I saw that one coming.

arredondo · Jul 02, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Wow.... scientists can come here to freely study those that can comprehend a point and those that can't. Even if you disagree 100% of what we're saying about all of this, there's no reason in the world why people continue to post stuff like the following:

Quote:

OMG I am so sick of you trying to use sports as an anology, it doesn't work. First of all, you can't just BE an entrant into Wimbledon or the NBA, you have to PURCHASE the required equipmant first.

You can't just BE succesful at PvP, you have PURCHASE the required equipment first.

Here, instead of money, it's now Faction, and instead of buying balls your buying skills.

Instead of money, it's GOLD, and instead of rackets your buying runes or equipment you need.

Skills in the game are NOT equivalent to SKILLS in real life. Stop trying to make them the same. Skills in the game, meaning spells and attacks, are EQUIPMENT.

The unlock is there to REWARD players for still playing the game. Anet is a business, and if they gave you want right away, youd stop playing the game sooner. This way you WANT to play longer and harder to gain the EQUIPMENT you need. NO REAL LIFE EQUIVALENT? O FRIGGIN WELL! GET OVER IT!!!!

If you are going to debate the point, try at least understanding the point! I'll try again to explain with responses like these. They do NOT address what we are saying.

YES you have to purchase equipment in pro sports. YES you have to practice long and hard just for a 1% chance to face the pros. YES if your team wants a facility to practice in they must pay the big $$$.

BUT... (this is where the eternally confused must pay reeeeeeally close attention):

What is keeping one from acquiring these things?! Is it the facts of life as it relates to the participant, or is it the LEAGUE RULES preventing one from being equal with his opponents?

THAT is what you can not ignore in any response here because it is the ONLY POINT BEING MADE! No serious competitive activity, except Guild Wars PvP, has it in the rules that you have to jump through 1,000 hoops for the "league" before you can start with the same stuff as the opponent.

Thousands of activities, sports, board games, over the course of hundreds of years... they ALL let you come in with whatever the opponent has if you can get it. If you can't? Oh well... grind away on your own to get it. But when you have to grind to please the "league" for the stuff you need, you are not playing in a 100% skillful contest.

The outcome (slightly or greatly) has been pre-influenced by the league that let's the ones who monkey danced for them 10,000 times come in with stuff you need, but can't have because YOU didn't monkey dance 10,000 times too.

Skills in the game are not the same as skills in real life... I said that a few pages ago. The skils icons in the game are important "gear" that you need to succeed. In real life, if you need gear the LEAGUE doesn't make you jump through 1,000 hoops to get it just so you can be prepared for your opponent who has that gear. In Guild Wars, you can not start with all the gear you need. you are forced to please the league through hoop jumping.

You may agree with the system (which is against the logic of every skillful competitive activity ever made), but you can not continue to debate this if you ignore the main point CONTINUALLY being made.

arredondo · Jul 02, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

a serious question for pvp people only

will a skillful person with a template 20 character have a better than 50-50 chance of beating a less skillful competitor with a template 20 who has more time on their clock so to speak.

please answer yes or no if you can under only the above conditions

thank you

That has nothing to do with this debate. The league shouldn't impose the boundaries around one competitior while the other is allowed greater access to needed gear. This isn't about percentages of wins for one or the other, it's about competitive common sense and having full strategic options in front of you at all times..

Siren · Jul 02, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

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Originally Posted by Kali Ma

If I could practice an Inspiration Mesmer, I might be really good at playing that character effectively in a team. But I will probably never know to be quite honest, because the skills and upgrades are locked.

And thus you play PvE. PvE is just as much a training in team dynamics as PvP is, so if you want to practice as an Inspiration Mesmer yet find yourself unable to in PvP...you've got PvE to do it. Along the way, you unlock skills, become accustomed to the build, tweak it accordingly...it's the same thing as PvP.

It's not as if PvE is some mindless fight against a mindless AI...the tactics and strategies my guild mates and I are developing as we progress through PvE will serve us well in PvP when everyone in the guild is ready to get in there.

No amount of PvP Elitism will change the fact that a Level 15 Necromancer/Warrior will have trouble their first few times in Druid's Overlook until they begin to understand how the enemies work, and how to counter the enemy skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

So if someone in that guild gets a little frustrated by it and says so on the forums here or anywhere else, this is the common response they get...

'Tough luck, get used to it. If you don't like it, don't play. Stop whining. You're guild isn't serious, so who cares? You're a noob for not focusing on those skills in the first place. STFU. Noob. Whiner. Don't let the door hit you on you're way out. Your guild sucks. You're an idiot. Loser. On and on, etc..."

Um... ok then. Really helpful, thanks.

I've not been using that response, and when I do get annoyed, it's because of people who aren't demonstrating any remotely minimal understanding of why Guild Wars is constructed how it is...why it's an RPG and not "real life" sports. The design approach and purpose of Guild Wars is entirely lost on them because they cling to some idealistic view of how everything should be according to their point of view--and not how everything is according to "reality" (reality in quotations because games are an illusion, not real reality).

*and refers to Red Locust's post*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

No game is based 100% on pure skill. Everything involves equipment, be it your hardware or in-game items. Sports? The more money you put into the team, the better it is. Car racing? The better the car, the better the outcome. FPS games? The better your hardware the better your performance. RPG games? The more time you put into your character the better he is.

GW is actually quite lenient in this respect, in that you can easily unlock 2 classes and play at 100% potential. If you split up the professions among your guild, you can compensate for everyone not having unlocked all skills. Then you're at 100% competitiveness. Your guild's failure to do so is not the fault of the game as much as it is the fault of the guild for not having organized this.

RPGs tend to not rely on your hardwars, but rather your in-game items. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's gonna remain.

He (she?) summed it up nicely. This is largely how RPGs have been constructed for 20-some years. There has always been a requirement to acquire gear, skills, abilities, etc, regardless of what RPG you're playing--or really, regardless of what kind of video game you're playing. And this is why Guild Wars is a brilliant concept: it meshes together various design approaches/purposes yet keeps the core of an RPG.

RMThompson · Jul 02, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

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Originally Posted by arredondo

No serious competitive activity, except Guild Wars PvP, has it in the rules that you have to jump through 1,000 hoops for the "league" before you can start with the same stuff as the opponent.

serious competitive activity???

Are you joking? Guild Wars is a VIDEO GAME. It's not hockey, baseball or even weightlifting!

Kali Ma · Jul 02, 2005, 10:49 PM // 22:49

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And thus you play PvE...

Um... I've already invested over 500 hours into PvE, thanks. I'd rather not go through the entire thing from scratch yet again just to test out an Inspiration Mesmer build in PvP. And I really dont' want to screw up my main PvE character by switching her secondary just so I can unlock five skills.

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serious competitive activity???

Are you joking? Guild Wars is a VIDEO GAME. It's not hockey, baseball or even weightlifting!

Then why do you even care? Why is a universal unlock for PvP so threatening, that it causes players to scream, debate and insult other people? It's just a video game, right? So why can't those of us who would like to see an even more competitive system than there is already, have our point of view and side of the discussion without people like you completely going off on us, hmm?

There are lots of threads regarding this topic, and not all started by the same people. So it's obviously something that at least a certain demographic of the player base is interested in discussing. Yet almost every one of these threads attracts griefers who just want the everyone to stfu, and who are usually either rude or abusive with their language in saying so.

Kinda making this place hard to be around anymore, what with all the mean sprited responses and posts...

"Fine, don't hit your ass on the way out..."

Loviatar · Jul 02, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

Um... I've already invested over 500 hours into PvE, thanks. :

no offence meant just a question please.

500+hours equals over 7.5 hours a day.

were you exagerating for effect or could you actually sustain that pace for 2 months?

ps

if so do you consider yourself a casual gamer?

Siren · Jul 02, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

Um... I've already invested over 500 hours into PvE, thanks. I'd rather not go through the entire thing from scratch yet again just to test out an Inspiration Mesmer build in PvP. And I really dont' want to screw up my main PvE character by switching her secondary just so I can unlock five skills.

So...over 500 hours into PvE...unlocked what you estimate to be 60% of the total...I presume you unlocked other character skills (different than your main)...so how in that 500 hours did you miss five skills for an Inspiration Mesmer build? From your post it sounds like you have access to other Mesmer skills (why else would you be working with any Mesmer build to begin with?), but you didn't play Mesmer enough in 500 hours to unlock five skills? Unless I'm missing some really subtle detail, that just sounds really weird.

And plus, if you didn't play Mesmer at all in PvE...why should you be granted UAS/UAR? It's basically "I never played that profession then, but I want to play that profession now, so give me everything that I missed." That's what your example is when we remove all the extraneous post.

Regarding arredondo, dude, I'm sorry, but the UAS/UAR was a Beta-only feature. It was never going to be in the final game. It was never one of the fundamental design concepts of the game. I'm not about to pretend that I was sitting with ANet during development meetings and so forth, but it's plain to see what they were really going to do, and it's plain to see why we don't have the UAS/UAR feature: because Guild Wars is still an RPG at its core.

You're screaming bloody murder about how unlocking skills violates every principle of serious competition...but you're screaming bloody murder about something that is very clearly designed in a way as to adhere to the principles of an actual RPG, principles including character development, stat-building, skill/ability acquisition, etc.

I've been disregarding your main point (that unlocking defeats serious competition) because in the context of Guild Wars...that main point is irrelevant. It doesn't even have bearing here. You've been repeating this mantra of "unlocking is inappropriate for competitive play," and in any other game genre, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But not in this genre.

Quote:

In real life, if you need gear the LEAGUE doesn't make you jump through 1,000 hoops to get it just so you can be prepared for your opponent who has that gear. In Guild Wars, you can not start with all the gear you need. you are forced to please the league through hoop jumping.

And there's a reason for that, one that makes perfect sense:

Guild Wars is an RPG, a video game. Real life sports are real life sports.

You're "made to jump through hoops" in GW because largely, that's what RPGs are: working on a scale to achieve greater abilities and skills.

You created this thread to voice concern. Fine. But the new PvP unlocking system does take skill--in fact, it requires skill--for the player to unlock what they want for PvP. There are variables in play, for sure. Only a fool would deny that. And sometimes, a match just doesn't go your way due to a crappy team, or something as simple as an off-night.

Sometimes the other team may be better equipped--although, with the PvP unlock system, I doubt an opposing team would all be maxxed out...why else would they be playing if they were also trying to unlock items and such? That's now the only point for the competitive arenas, after all. No xp is being granted or anything, only faction points...so...you get the idea.

But sometimes, you do just get outplayed. It does happen...and getting outplayed by better strategies, better organization, etc., is a loss based on skill, and a win in that situation is a win based on skill. Winning and losing in the arenas and GvG is still largely dependent on skill, with a few variables thrown in.

Kali Ma · Jul 02, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

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no offence meant just a question please.

None taken...

Yeah, that's a lot. When I ran /age on all my characters, and then approximated the time spent on all my initial test characters that never made it past pre-searing, it was a little surprising to be honest. I don't really know exactly what the total hours are, but it's somewhere between 450 and 550, yeah.

And no, I don't average 7.5 hours a day. I'd say on a normal day it would be 2 to 4 hours, and I hardly ever go on for less than 2 hours at a time. But there have been a few weekend stretches now where I'd go for like all day, several days in a row. And that can add up pretty fast. I'd guess that at least 180 of those hours were spent in around five 3-day marathon runs, of at least 12 hrs a day. So it might seem like a lot... and it is... but it's not a daily thing.

I've always considered myself a casual player in the past and with other games, but have to honestly own up and say that with GW the whole casual thing just doesn't apply anymore. My hope was to get this and be able to play it casually on weekends only... not. It's a lot of fun, and I'm definitely hooked, on the PvE side at least. The PvP hasnt' been as fun yet, and I feel I've illustrated why here. Most of my character designs so far have been "out of the box" builds since I enjoy being a little different, and not available as one of the pre-designed templates so far. And unlocking skills/upgrades hasn't been the main focus of play, since I actually enjoy PvE for what it is.

That's why comments like, "if you dont' like it, don't play it" or "get lost" or "you need to play more" aren't taken very well. I enjoy this game, the community, and the people I've met. And I've invested a lot of time and energy into my characters and the community, in various ways. That's why I feel like my opinions, however unique or in the minority they may be, have just as much right to be expressed and respected as everyone else's.

I'm a GW player, and proud of it. I'm gonna be here for awhile, so get used to it. Just like all the comments suggesting that if I don't like it, then I don't have to play... well if someone doesn't like what someone has to say, they don't have to participate in that thread. Just because someone disagrees doesn't give them the right to be derisive, insulting and demanding.

And to any of the moderators who happen to be reading this, I'm really disappointed that the whole "No Flaming" thing isn't taken more seriously around here. It should be changed to "No Flaming, unless it's a post by someone who doesn't like something about the game, then it's cool."

Kali Ma · Jul 02, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

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I presume you unlocked other character skills (different than your main)...

Nope. Just the ones for my primaries and secondaries that I needed and wanted. I don't play PvE to unlock skills and hunt down stuff for PvP... I play it because I enjoy it.

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unlocked what you estimate to be 60% of the total

You misread my post... I said 60% or more is not unlocked. I wonder how many other things in my posts were "misread" as well.

Siren · Jul 02, 2005, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

Nope. Just the ones for my primaries and secondaries that I needed and wanted. I don't play PvE to unlock skills and hunt down stuff for PvP... I play it because I enjoy it.

You misread my post... I said 60% or more is not unlocked. I wonder how many other things in my posts were "misread" as well.

Don't get me wrong. I play because I enjoy it, too. I just can't resist starting new PvE character combinations to goof around with. =p

I've actually got three characters that cover all the professions, and then I just started a Monk/????? just for the hell of it.

About that 60% thing...

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I'd guess that around 60% (probably more) of the available skills, runes and upgrades are locked to my characters

It was a tad ambiguous to begin with. Obviously, nobody here is using completely perfect grammar, syntax, etc., but "locked to my characters" has more meanings than just "unavailable to my characters."

In one usage of the word, "locked," that phrase could very well mean "binded to my characters," which would then imply unlocking. You have items and such essentially assigned to your characters--which is very similar to the philosophy behind the unlocking system: unlock an item, rune, whatever, and it becomes available to all your PvP characters. The items and runes and so forth become binded to your account, like the new faction points. They're not character-exclusive; they're account-wide.

Kali Ma · Jul 03, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

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In one usage of the word, "locked," that phrase could very well mean "binded to my characters," which would then imply unlocking.

Talk about messing with semantics to not have to admit you were in error, geez...

The grammar used in my sentence was lucid and unambiguous. I've never heard anyone around here who refered to skill and upgrades as being "locked" to mean anything other than "not unlocked."

Ok, whatever... you're right. You win. I don't know what I was thinking. How's that? Feel better now?

Tuna · Jul 03, 2005, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMThompson

OMG I am so sick of you trying to use sports as an anology, it doesn't work. First of all, you can't just BE an entrant into Wimbledon or the NBA, you have to PURCHASE the required equipmant first.

I bought the equipment needed to play the game already. Its a cute little box with a 100 page manual and a cd.

Quote:

You can't just BE succesful at PvP, you have PURCHASE the required equipment first.

Here, instead of money, it's now Faction, and instead of buying balls your buying skills.

Instead of money, it's GOLD, and instead of rackets your buying runes or equipment you need.

You're right, you can't just BE succesfull at PvP, you have to practice. However, you analogy is incorrect.

Quote:

Skills in the game are NOT equivalent to SKILLS in real life. Stop trying to make them the same. Skills in the game, meaning spells and attacks, are EQUIPMENT.

You said it yourself, there is not equivalent to skills, and then you say skills = equipment.

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It's really as simple as that. If you don't like it, don't play it. Guild Wars isn't the only game, nor is playing it a requirement. I don't like Worlds of Warcraft, and I don't play it.

We do like it, we just don't like the bullshit you have to go through to get to the good part.

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See how easy that was?

Pretty damn hard seeing that you didn't read at least one previous post.

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Regarding arredondo, dude, I'm sorry, but the UAS/UAR was a Beta-only feature. It was never going to be in the final game. It was never one of the fundamental design concepts of the game. I'm not about to pretend that I was sitting with ANet during development meetings and so forth, but it's plain to see what they were really going to do, and it's plain to see why we don't have the UAS/UAR feature: because Guild Wars is still an RPG at its core.

You're screaming bloody murder about how unlocking skills violates every principle of serious competition...but you're screaming bloody murder about something that is very clearly designed in a way as to adhere to the principles of an actual RPG, principles including character development, stat-building, skill/ability acquisition, etc.

I've been disregarding your main point (that unlocking defeats serious competition) because in the context of Guild Wars...that main point is irrelevant. It doesn't even have bearing here. You've been repeating this mantra of "unlocking is inappropriate for competitive play," and in any other game genre, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But not in this genre.

A few things:

You make a lot of reasonable points here. But a lot of what you say boils down to, "There is a way that it has been done before (in RPGs). You are wrong to want to change that."

True innovation always involves going against the idea of doing something in a certain way just because it's always been done that way. Guild Wars clearly comes closest to being truly competitive, in the realm of Massive Online RPGs.

It's clearly true to me, and many others, that there is no venue for serious competition in Guild Wars. I'm soliciting ideas for ways that fair, serious competition could be added to Guild Wars. The key is to find a method which isn't "Unlock Everything!". I think it's clear that ArenaNet isn't going to do that, and that seems fine.

If you have ideas, please, please, either PM me or add to this thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27583

Siren · Jul 03, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

Talk about messing with semantics to not have to admit you were in error, geez...

The grammar used in my sentence was lucid and unambiguous. I've never heard anyone around here who refered to skill and upgrades as being "locked" to mean anything other than "not unlocked."

Ok, whatever... you're right. You win. I don't know what I was thinking. How's that? Feel better now?

Who was concerned with winning? I was merely explaining why I read it the way I did, and my previous reply was not intended to cut you down or anything of the sort, so I don't understand why there's a twinge of offense or annoyance in your reply here.

And to be fair, "anyone around here" includes the entirety of this messageboard...and I think it's safe to say that some don't exactly demonstrate a clear grasp on the English language, heh. So I don't really think that nobody else mentioning other uses of particular words and phrases is entirely meaningful, if at all.

Again, not trying to be mean here, and I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just explaining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeDiamonds

A few things:

You make a lot of reasonable points here. But a lot of what you say boils down to, "There is a way that it has been done before (in RPGs). You are wrong to want to change that."

True innovation always involves going against the idea of doing something in a certain way just because it's always been done that way. Guild Wars clearly comes closest to being truly competitive, in the realm of Massive Online RPGs.

It's clearly true to me, and many others, that there is no venue for serious competition in Guild Wars. I'm soliciting ideas for ways that fair, serious competition could be added to Guild Wars. The key is to find a method which isn't "Unlock Everything!". I think it's clear that ArenaNet isn't going to do that, and that seems fine.

If you have ideas, please, please, either PM me or add to this thread:

Thing is, Jo, I'm very pleased with the steps ANet has taken lately. They've been exceptional in their customer service. They've been attentive to the fanbase's needs and wants, and I think most here (apart from a very minor few) would agree that if more companies had ANet's approach, the industry would be better off.

And it's because of that I get so annoyed with people who constantly whine about every little thing that bugs them. ANet is almost bending over backwards to placate the complaints and criticisms, to make GW truly enjoyable for all...and that isn't even good enough.

I wholeheartedly agree that Guild Wars is one game that gives most of the industry a major kick in the teeth, and I cannot praise ANet enough for that. I agree that gaming evolves over time, and new concepts and ideas are pushed forward, but for the purposes of this discussion, I think a major question is just outright being ignored by some very vocal people:

Where do we draw the line between what a game is designed to do versus what a few people want?

And really, that's been what I've been trying to get across all along. I don't want a UAS/UAR feature as much as you don't. It has implications that would be potentially game-breaking, especially considering the mesh between PvE and PvP ANet is trying to achieve with GW.

The recent PvP unlock system is almost exactly what PvPers were asking for not even a month ago. Many PvPers were asking for an unlock system that didn't require them to slog through the PvE campaign multiple times. That's precisely what ANet delivered. They were asking for an unlock system that allowed them to PvP to unlock items. That's precisely what ANet delivered.

The only thing I could think of needing some revision is the faction point requirements. I certainly wouldn't argue that 3k faction points for one elite skill is fair, because it isn't. But overall? It's a solid system, just like the game itself. All that it needs is tweaking and streamlining, just like the game itself.